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#4613 - 07/19/02 04:19 PM Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
For two years now I've tried to take a course where the instructors incist on teaching the doff and Dawn. Whereas you remove your equipment at the bottom of the pool and surface. Once that is accomplished you have to go down and retrieve it. Is this a practical way off teaching and is dangerous. For myself I cannot seem to get over the fear that they drill into us in the classroom.
What should I do?

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#4614 - 08/03/02 11:30 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm a PADI rescue diver not an instructor so I'm not sure if it's my opinion that you want, but I think that, if done properly, this Doff Dawn thing is a good exercise. Every class i've ever taken or seen has had to work on controlled swimming ascents w/o air, and gear removal/replacement under water. This seems to be a culmination of the two. However, it does seem strange that they are asking you to do the ascent without your tank. If you are talking about a depth of 10 feet or less, then it seem like it would be safe, but a relatively long ascent, like 20 or 30 feet, should be done with the tank just in case theres a problem. (in my last class, I was told to do the out of air ascent with my reg in my mouth even though I wasn't using it. Hope this helps.

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#4615 - 08/05/02 11:02 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
Thanks for your reply. In the course I was taking, the pool was 18 feet deep and the instructors insisted that this is to get familiar with your equipment. The problem is, is that it was their equipment I was using and I never had the same gear each time. For me it was a very unpleasent experience.

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#4616 - 08/05/02 01:59 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Rebecca Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/06/00
Posts: 561
In my open water class I teach bc off and back on under the water and on the surface. But I do not teach leaving the gear at the bottom and swimming up. However, this is a skill I teach in the master scuba diver or dive master courses.

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#4617 - 08/06/02 10:05 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
The course I entered was "supposed" to be basic diver. In the first class the instructors have you swim 10 laps and tread water in several different fashions, for three minutes. The first is the normal way, then legs only with your hands above your head and then just your hands only. These guys feel that if you're going to be a diver you must be comfortable in the water. But at the same time they try advance course instruction to beginner divers. I also found out that several years ago an individual died while doing the Doff and Dawn. I guess they don't learn from their mistakes.

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#4618 - 08/09/02 01:41 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi, I know some people who got certified A LONG TIME AGO and they were required to doff and don equipment underwater. For example, they had to throw all their gear in the deep end. All dissasembled except for that the regs were mounted on the tank. Junp in and breathe off of the reg. and then don mask, BCD, fins, weights, etc. all while underwater. I have heard that the military used to and/or still does this type of training. I was certified with PADI and we did not do this. Although we did remove and replace our BCDs with tank still mounted on the surface and underwater. This, is a good practice. I'm not too sure about the doff and don thing though. Seems kinda unnecessary and dangerous. If you do not feel comfortable see if you can finish your courses with a PADI instructor. I guess you probably already forked out the dough though. Well anyway, I wish you good luck and hope I helped. Scububba.

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#4619 - 08/09/02 05:19 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
You're right about the money, oh well. I guess you "live" and learn, right? I'll attempt to contact a PADI instructor or one that is similiar in standing and see what they say about continuing the course with them. Thanks for the advice.

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#4620 - 08/30/02 05:12 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Sdiver02 Offline
avid diver

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 8
Loc: Richmond VA
Hi guys I'm gonna put my 2 cents worth in on this subject. Doff & don is a required pool skill. Go slow with this until you are comfortable with this skill your instructor will understand and he should let you come back to the pool as many time as it takes you to get comfortable with it. It helps build your comfort level in the water and there are times when this skill will help you. What will happen when you or your tank becomes entangled in fishing line or net? With out this skill you could be in trouble. Or your tank comes loose and you want to put it back where it goes. Your instructor is training you to be a diver. If you have an instructor that is teaching you more than the basic requirements you have one that cares. Lack of training kills divers. I teach @ W&M around 140 students per year. There are to many Instructors that are just looking to make a few bucks and don't teach the skills to be a safe diver.

[ 09-28-2002, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Sdiver02 ]

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#4621 - 09/22/02 12:08 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Anonymous
Unregistered


although practicing a emergency swimming ascent should be neccesary in the pool, I would think that if you were to do the same in an open water setting you would want to keep all your equipment on because as you ascend the air in your tank will expand giving you a couple breaths. Also you'd want your bc with you so you could float effortlessly on the surface. i see no reason to leave your equipment on the bottum, unless it was so entangled that you couldn't untangle yourself or cut yourself free.
just my .02$

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#4622 - 09/26/02 03:34 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just found this board and thought I would get in on this subject. I just got my PADI open water last month and I did the dof/dawn discussed here. We went to the bottom of the deep end, took off everything but our wet suits, came up went back and put it all back on. Getting to the bottom with the wet suit on was the hard part for me. Once there I grabbed my wieght belt with one hand, reg. with the other and wrapped my legs around my BC till I got the belt on. Our master instructor said it was mandatory back in the early 70's but it was voluntary for us and we did it just for fun. That course was the most fun I ever had in all my 30+ years. Next month is advance open water on nitrox.

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#4623 - 09/28/02 06:04 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BIMINI ZANE Offline
avid diver

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 19
Loc: Atlantian At-Large
Hello Patrick,

You said in one of your posts that you'd contact a PADI Instructor about your gear removal question, so being a PADI MSDT, I'll take a shot at it. First, we do indeed teach BCD removal both on the surface and on the bottom, but certainly NEVER ascending without gear. There are no Confined or Open Water Exercises that teach ascent without the regulator in your mouth, the gear still attached to your body, nor should there be, for the same reason you mentioned earlier: Someone eventually dies; death can occur swiftly from apnea (breath-holding)of compressed air while asending, and it only takes a depth change of 1.2 metres (4 Ft.) to cause any of the four forms of lung overexpansiion injury. I don't know which dive agency you're using, but it certainly reminds me of the old days when divers were trained much in the same fashion as the Navy Seals, since most of the instructors were military types, bent on training everyone as though they were preparing for undersea attack.

I have several concerns about any agency that would teach you in this manner. First, it sounds as though they are combining several skills at once, and adding some just for their amusement, and that's not good. For your information, the surface and depth removal and replacement of BCD and weights is pretty much all of Confined Water Dive 5, but the ascent without the gear is off the charts, even when training leadership level divers. As part of our Divemaster Training skills, we do have the Divemaster Candidates, two at a time, exchange gear underwater, and then ascend wearing the other person's gear, but only as a "novel problem solving skill," to teach adaptability to unique problems that could occur underwater. And, even then, they do not ascend without a regulator in their mouth.

Next, even in the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent,which is performed in both Confined Water and Open Water training exercises, the diver does NOT ascend wihout a regulator, and in fact, the strongest admonition given to each student all during training, and again, several times prior to doing it in Open Water, is "DO NOT TAKE YOUR REGULATOR OUT OF YOUR MOUTH FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER!"

If you stay in this business long enough, you are going to run across those persons who imitate intructors, but who have no business teaching others, who in actuality wouldn't even make good beginning dive buddies. I heavily suggest that you go with an agency that does not allow this type of Instructor Candidate to ever get his card until he learns more about how dangerous his little "added bonus skills" really are. There are NO RECREATIONAL diving skill levels which require what you described, and whoever is teaching them is putting you in danger, as you already know, since someone died from a similar idiot's advice. I can probably guess the initials of the dive agency you used, but that's neither here nor there; what's important is that you take all further training from qualified personnel, from a real dive agency. We are not training "death-defying" antics down there. It's supposed to be safe and fun! Write me if I can be of further service.

Best regards,

Zane Cofield
PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer
MSDT-178767
BIMINIZANE@aol.com

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#4624 - 09/28/02 07:38 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Sdiver02 Offline
avid diver

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 8
Loc: Richmond VA
What Bimini Zane stated is 100% by the book. But some of the agencies allow us to teach BEYOND but never less than the BASIC standards. The confined water is the place to learn rather than on the job training when a problem occurs. Money Resort and Weekend format courses have lowered the standards over the years. One agency has even pretty much dropped their swim requirements, another lowered the age requirements to I believe 10 years of age. Another advertises on the Internet how quickly you can become and Instructor. Many dive boat operators fail to check for c-cards forget the logbook. I feel the more prepared our divers are the better off we ALL are. If we teach them to be prepared they will have fun. I do understand the Padi concept of not exceeing the course requirements. But I do not agree with it, nor do we use the weekend format class or resort course. Our Basic class consists of 12 confined water sessions and 12 classroom sessions before doing your open water dives. All of the information from agency to agency is basically the same it is the instructor and how the course is presented that makes the difference! ALL OF THE AGENCIES ARE GREAT THEY ALL HAVE STRONG POINTS AND THEY ALL HAVE WEAK POINTS

[ 09-28-2002, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Sdiver02 ]

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#4625 - 03/21/03 09:40 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
HI Zane,
Just replying to your question as to which course I took. It was the Dolphin Aquatic club in Sudbury, Ontario and they are registered with ACUC.

http://www.sdac.net/

Pat

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#4626 - 03/24/03 10:36 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BillL Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 455
Loc: So. California, USA
I don't have a problem with ditch and don exercise. The concern is you did not feel comfortable doing the skill. This is a more advanced skill and should be used to build confidence or add some challenge for the students. As a student you can always refuse to do any skill or exercise you do not feel comfortable with. The instructor’s job is to work from the simple to the complex and allow the student master the skills needed to become a safe competent scuba diver.

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#4627 - 03/24/03 06:18 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
Unfortunetly the instructors are volunteers and have no concern about helping the students get over their uncomfortability. They just want members in their club. I have recently signed up to a club and course throught SSI.

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#4628 - 03/25/03 09:47 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BillL Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 455
Loc: So. California, USA
If you need any help or have questions, we would be happy to help. Good luck with your new course.

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#4629 - 04/05/03 09:41 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
perryberry Offline
avid diver

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 5
Loc: MA
I noticed that you live in Sudbury. Is that Sudbury, MA? If so, the Instructors at Northeast Scuba in Chelmsford who I have seen teach Open Water Certifications require BC removal and replacement underwater and at the surface (in water too deep to stand up), but students do not remove their gear underwater and swim to the surface without it.

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#4630 - 04/05/03 02:04 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
Nope, it's Sudbury, Ontario. Thanks for the reply.

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