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#4623 - 09/28/02 06:04 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BIMINI ZANE Offline
avid diver

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 19
Loc: Atlantian At-Large
Hello Patrick,

You said in one of your posts that you'd contact a PADI Instructor about your gear removal question, so being a PADI MSDT, I'll take a shot at it. First, we do indeed teach BCD removal both on the surface and on the bottom, but certainly NEVER ascending without gear. There are no Confined or Open Water Exercises that teach ascent without the regulator in your mouth, the gear still attached to your body, nor should there be, for the same reason you mentioned earlier: Someone eventually dies; death can occur swiftly from apnea (breath-holding)of compressed air while asending, and it only takes a depth change of 1.2 metres (4 Ft.) to cause any of the four forms of lung overexpansiion injury. I don't know which dive agency you're using, but it certainly reminds me of the old days when divers were trained much in the same fashion as the Navy Seals, since most of the instructors were military types, bent on training everyone as though they were preparing for undersea attack.

I have several concerns about any agency that would teach you in this manner. First, it sounds as though they are combining several skills at once, and adding some just for their amusement, and that's not good. For your information, the surface and depth removal and replacement of BCD and weights is pretty much all of Confined Water Dive 5, but the ascent without the gear is off the charts, even when training leadership level divers. As part of our Divemaster Training skills, we do have the Divemaster Candidates, two at a time, exchange gear underwater, and then ascend wearing the other person's gear, but only as a "novel problem solving skill," to teach adaptability to unique problems that could occur underwater. And, even then, they do not ascend without a regulator in their mouth.

Next, even in the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent,which is performed in both Confined Water and Open Water training exercises, the diver does NOT ascend wihout a regulator, and in fact, the strongest admonition given to each student all during training, and again, several times prior to doing it in Open Water, is "DO NOT TAKE YOUR REGULATOR OUT OF YOUR MOUTH FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER!"

If you stay in this business long enough, you are going to run across those persons who imitate intructors, but who have no business teaching others, who in actuality wouldn't even make good beginning dive buddies. I heavily suggest that you go with an agency that does not allow this type of Instructor Candidate to ever get his card until he learns more about how dangerous his little "added bonus skills" really are. There are NO RECREATIONAL diving skill levels which require what you described, and whoever is teaching them is putting you in danger, as you already know, since someone died from a similar idiot's advice. I can probably guess the initials of the dive agency you used, but that's neither here nor there; what's important is that you take all further training from qualified personnel, from a real dive agency. We are not training "death-defying" antics down there. It's supposed to be safe and fun! Write me if I can be of further service.

Best regards,

Zane Cofield
PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer
MSDT-178767
BIMINIZANE@aol.com

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#4624 - 09/28/02 07:38 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Sdiver02 Offline
avid diver

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 8
Loc: Richmond VA
What Bimini Zane stated is 100% by the book. But some of the agencies allow us to teach BEYOND but never less than the BASIC standards. The confined water is the place to learn rather than on the job training when a problem occurs. Money Resort and Weekend format courses have lowered the standards over the years. One agency has even pretty much dropped their swim requirements, another lowered the age requirements to I believe 10 years of age. Another advertises on the Internet how quickly you can become and Instructor. Many dive boat operators fail to check for c-cards forget the logbook. I feel the more prepared our divers are the better off we ALL are. If we teach them to be prepared they will have fun. I do understand the Padi concept of not exceeing the course requirements. But I do not agree with it, nor do we use the weekend format class or resort course. Our Basic class consists of 12 confined water sessions and 12 classroom sessions before doing your open water dives. All of the information from agency to agency is basically the same it is the instructor and how the course is presented that makes the difference! ALL OF THE AGENCIES ARE GREAT THEY ALL HAVE STRONG POINTS AND THEY ALL HAVE WEAK POINTS

[ 09-28-2002, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Sdiver02 ]

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#4625 - 03/21/03 09:40 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
HI Zane,
Just replying to your question as to which course I took. It was the Dolphin Aquatic club in Sudbury, Ontario and they are registered with ACUC.

http://www.sdac.net/

Pat

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#4626 - 03/24/03 10:36 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BillL Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 455
Loc: So. California, USA
I don't have a problem with ditch and don exercise. The concern is you did not feel comfortable doing the skill. This is a more advanced skill and should be used to build confidence or add some challenge for the students. As a student you can always refuse to do any skill or exercise you do not feel comfortable with. The instructor’s job is to work from the simple to the complex and allow the student master the skills needed to become a safe competent scuba diver.

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#4627 - 03/24/03 06:18 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
Unfortunetly the instructors are volunteers and have no concern about helping the students get over their uncomfortability. They just want members in their club. I have recently signed up to a club and course throught SSI.

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#4628 - 03/25/03 09:47 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
BillL Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 455
Loc: So. California, USA
If you need any help or have questions, we would be happy to help. Good luck with your new course.

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#4629 - 04/05/03 09:41 AM Re: Doff and Dawn
perryberry Offline
avid diver

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 5
Loc: MA
I noticed that you live in Sudbury. Is that Sudbury, MA? If so, the Instructors at Northeast Scuba in Chelmsford who I have seen teach Open Water Certifications require BC removal and replacement underwater and at the surface (in water too deep to stand up), but students do not remove their gear underwater and swim to the surface without it.

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#4630 - 04/05/03 02:04 PM Re: Doff and Dawn
Patrick Offline
avid diver

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 7
Loc: Sudbury
Nope, it's Sudbury, Ontario. Thanks for the reply.

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