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#4037 - 11/07/00 10:02 AM Dual Air Octos
Anonymous
Unregistered


What is your opinion on the safety of dual air octos? Are they an accident waiting to happen considering that it is emphasized during certification that air is on the right? What happens when someone runs out of air and looks for his buddy's air to be on his right and it is instead on the left?

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#4038 - 11/07/00 10:25 AM Re: Dual Air Octos
Rebecca Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/06/00
Posts: 561
I love those things. They are out of the way, convient, and easy to use. In most "real" out of air emergencys the person that is out of air is going to grab the regulator out of your mouth and in this case you will have your spare conviently on the inflator hose.
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde:
What is your opinion on the safety of dual air octos? Are they an accident waiting to happen considering that it is emphasized during certification that air is on the right? What happens when someone runs out of air and looks for his buddy's air to be on his right and it is instead on the left?


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#4039 - 11/07/00 10:54 AM Re: Dual Air Octos
Anonymous
Unregistered


I strongly disagree Rebecca and believe that it is still dangerous to be messing with your very SHORT power inflator hose (on your left)when out of air. Think about it...the out of air person grabs your regulator, so you go to grab your power inflator hose...what if you put the wrong end in your mouth.. i.e. the opening that blows up your BC...this very well could happen since you would be in a state of semi panic from someone grabbing your regulator, not to mention the awkwardness of the short hose and trying to grab it in a state of panic with gloves on, all the while thinking "air on the right". I posted this message as a warning to all consumers to give them something to think about before purchasing one. Perhaps Scuba.com should think about the consequences of an out of air emergency and rethink the decision to sell such a dangerous product. Remember, Asbestos was a great product until it was discovered it caused cancer. Dual air octos may be convenient, but to me they aren't worth the dangers they pose in a true out of air emergency. One final question - do you as an instructor use one for teaching? I hope your answer is NO!

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#4040 - 11/14/00 02:16 PM Re: Dual Air Octos
Rebecca Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/06/00
Posts: 561
As with any piece of equipment you have to to know how it works. I agree with you that if someone dosen't know where to put his mouth to breathe off of his own equipment he shouldn't be using it. As with any out of air emergency there may be panic involved that is why in my basic scuba classes I have students pratice out of air emergencys.I Recommend if you dont feel comfortable with an out of air emergency, practice it in the presence of your dive instructor.
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde:
I strongly disagree Rebecca and believe that it is still dangerous to be messing with your very SHORT power inflator hose (on your left)when out of air. Think about it...the out of air person grabs your regulator, so you go to grab your power inflator hose...what if you put the wrong end in your mouth.. i.e. the opening that blows up your BC...this very well could happen since you would be in a state of semi panic from someone grabbing your regulator, not to mention the awkwardness of the short hose and trying to grab it in a state of panic with gloves on, all the while thinking "air on the right". I posted this message as a warning to all consumers to give them something to think about before purchasing one. Perhaps Scuba.com should think about the consequences of an out of air emergency and rethink the decision to sell such a dangerous product. Remember, Asbestos was a great product until it was discovered it caused cancer. Dual air octos may be convenient, but to me they aren't worth the dangers they pose in a true out of air emergency. One final question - do you as an instructor use one for teaching? I hope your answer is NO!


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#4041 - 11/14/00 03:05 PM Re: Dual Air Octos
Anonymous
Unregistered


Rebecca,

I am quite comfortable with handling all dive emergencies and do not need further instruction, but thanks for the offer. You still do not get my point which is during a panic,a dual air octo could be confusing and dangerous. I am sure Firestone knew their tires were lousy and hoped to hide it from us. Plan worked fine until blowouts started occuring. When does safety become more important than a quick buck? How about we start preventing accidents before they occur rather than learning the hard way. You still did not answer my question which I repeat..do you personally use a dual air octo during instruction? If your answer is no then ask yourself the real reason you select not to use them during instruction. Please respond with diver safety in mind rather than how you can make scuba.com some extra sales.


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#4042 - 11/16/00 01:17 AM Re: Dual Air Octos
SEAL-X-033 Offline
just got here

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1
RE: DUAL AIR OCTOS

Having used several different types of safe second stages which were integrated into the BC inflator hose in various manners, I can say that in my experience,their performance rates from marginal to adequate. The shorter hose restricts the movement of your head somewhat, while also causing a fairly heavy pull on the mouthpiece. Their actual perfomance,(air delivery,Work of Breathing,performance at depths greater than 130',etc.)varies widely, but even the best ones are only equal to a low to mid range standard regulator on a 6CF pony bottle.(which would give you a true redundant air system that you could hand off to that 'panicked' diver after you get him/her settled down a bit.) I believe that the use of LPI-integrated regulators should be practiced very often and made familiar to all members of your dive team. I personally see nothing wrong with an instructor teaching their use to new students along with standard methods. When you practice with something awhile, it's deficiencies as well as it's benefits become apparent. Their performance is about the same as the "octo" grade regs, they are always right at hand as you use your inflator,they do away with the often dangling "octopus", as well as it's hose, which eliminates a potential source of entanglement,they almost never drag in the sand under normal conditions,some are very compact. On the other hand, they do increase your task load somewhat, giving you one more thing to deal with under stress,and requiring a fair amount of practice to become proficient with. You also have to remember to make them a part of your pre-dive briefings, especially with than less than advanced level divers. And let's not forget that short hose, either. All in all,it seems to me that this is one piece of equipment that requires a lot of consideration before purchase and use. I have never seen a actual situation where they increased the hazard or caused any problem. I agree with Rebecca in that,in a real life out of air situation,the majority of divers(especially new or inexperienced divers)will go for the regulator that they know is working(the one in your mouth with bubbles coming out of it). This has happened to me several times and I assure you that I was thinking something like "YOU JERK!" instead of "air on the right". I regularly use different types of backup air systems, including standard type safe seconds,LPI-integrated air systems,pony bottles,doubles with isolation manifolds,and redundant doubles,as well as side mounts and stage bottles at various times according to the situation.I have so far had no problem adapting to these various systems myself, although I do take the experience of my companion divers into consideration when configuring my systems and giving the pre-dive briefing.Learn all you can about the various systems,choose what's best for you, and PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
Good luck and God Bless You,

SEA LAND EXPLORATION TEAM
MEMBER # 033

[This message has been edited by SEAL-X-033 (edited 11-16-2000).]


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#4043 - 11/19/00 04:51 PM Re: Dual Air Octos
SEAL X 045 Offline
just got here

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 1
Greetings SEAL-X-033! Good info and advice as always. Interesting topic. I seem to remember a time when you were probably thinking 'you jerk!' at about 90' when a 'newbie'(who was not even with us and was unknown to us) ripped the regulator out of your mouth and tried to bolt to the surface with it. You handled it with your usual well trained rational response(ie;You did not grab your knife,and take your regulator back while cutting him up for bait). Instead of letting him get you both killed or seriously injured, you switched to your safe second(LPI-integrated as I recall),dumped air from your BC,then reached up and dumped his BC. After getting him calmed down, you then switched him over to your pony bottle and cut him loose to make his ascent while you went to your first deco stop. Leaving the rest of the safety team to monitor your cave team, I headed to the surface to retrieve your pony rig. Upon surfacing, I found the 'newbie' yelling at his instructor(where was he when we needed him?)about the 'bad gear' he had sold him. While they were going at it, I checked his gear( manifolded double Alum.80's with single valve/single reg.setup). His guages showed 2400psi!,and when I checked his valve,it was less than halfway open. When his instructor was made aware of this, he informed me that this was the 'newbies' second dive since his advanced open water certification, and only about his 10th dive total. I asked about your pony rig, and was told that it had been put in the 'newbies' dive bag "by accident". I then told them that it would probably be in their best interest to be gone before the rest of our club finished their deco and surfaced.(Our club has a VERY bad attitude toward thieves, even potential ones) They wisely took my advice and hit the road back to wherever they came from, hopefully never to be seen again(at least by us). I hope you don't mind me using this example to illustrate the point that you were so eloquently making. That is, that every diver is responsible for knowing how to properly access and use whatever gear configuraton he chooses to employ, as well as being familiar with all types of gear configurations in case you have to rescue someone else(or keep them from causing injury or death to you through their carelessness or stupidity). I know that is a lot of stuff to know, but diving can get very serious very quickly, and only you are responsible for your own safety in the water. I recommend that all divers practice regularly with different gear configurations(both yours and others). Also, the 'wannabe tekkies' should become familiar with basic dive skills and basic gear configurations before moving on to more advanced dive profiles and more complicated gear configurations. An Advanced or Specialty certifation does not mean that you are qualified to dive beyond the limits of your experience. Only by diving regularly and practicing the necessary skills constantly are you able to increase your safe diving envelope, and only you can decide what your limits are, especially when it comes to advanced diving conditions and gear configurations. KNOW YOUR LIMITS AND STAY WITHIN THOSE LIMITS. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENDANGER OTHER DIVERS THROUGH CARELESSNESS, INEXPERIENCE, OR STUPIDITY. Also I feel that most dive stores encourage student equipment purchases based upon profit margins rather than student needs, qualifications, or experience. The new 'Tek/Rec' trend has encouraged this due to the extra equipment envolved and the higher cost/profit margin of this equipment. If your student is not ready for this level of diving, to encourage them to buy high level equipment is almost criminal and should be discouraged by all other responsible divers.

See you down deep,

SEAL-X-045

P.S. SEAL-X 033, E-mail me and let me know how you are doing and if you have any cave or wreck dives coming up that I can join in on. Good luck.


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#4044 - 11/21/00 10:05 AM Re: Dual Air Octos
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, thanks for the responses! I think that some excellent points have been made here and that the conclusion is that dual air octos should be used by EXPERT divers only. I dont think Rebecca's response addressed this important point. Thanks again for cautioning anyone interested in a dual air octo. It refreshing to get a neutral point of view from a knowledgeable diver, and not just another sales pitch.

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