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#192 - 04/15/01 11:30 AM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
rstone Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 104
Loc: Jacksonville, FL USA
your just as a unsafe diver as OneThreeSeven. If you have to ask why have a snorkel, then you are a accident waiting to happen. People who look at a safety devices as task loading or unneeded so they can chat with there buddies on the surface is just plain stupid.

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#193 - 04/15/01 05:19 PM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
scuba1066 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 230
Loc: Oneida, NY
RSTONE,
I doubt that George Irvine would agree with you. Task Loading kills divers - period. Like OneThreeSeven says, "If a guys SAC rate is so bad that he needs a snorkel, he needs to get into the gym and get in shape." The key word here is SCUBA DIVING and not SKIN DIVING or SNORKELING! Name me one advantage that a snorkel offers vs not? Thats why a BC jacket doubles as a boyancy control device AND life jacket device - so divers can effortlessly swim while on the surface. Why would you want to swim towards your dive boat with your face submerged and not see where you are going when you don't need to? Even a current article in Rodale's SCUBA diving magazine recently reinforced what OneThreeSeven and I maintain. How many times have you accidently grabbed your snorkel instead of your inflator hose?

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#194 - 04/15/01 07:04 PM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
nobends Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 76
Loc: NY,NY, USA
Snorkels... I hear these are used to breath while swimming around in calm clear waters. I've never had much use for one when I 40ft down on a wreck or a reef. When I first started diving, I bought into the PADI instruction that a snorkel was part of the 'Standard' gear. I discovered that it dragged underwater slowing me down and got in the way when ever I tried to turn my head. I ended up ditching the thing right away.

I'm just starting to learn about the DIR system and have to admit it seems to make a lot of sense to me. However, I made my decision on the usefulness of snorkels (none) while diving a long time ago. There is no occasion that a snorkel will be an effective replacement for a regulator on the surface. Let's all admit that a snorkel is used for SNORKELLING.

BTW - I just bought a new snorkel so that I could spend some time on the surface on my next dive trip. I have every intention of leaving my scuba gear behind when I snorkel, just as I'll leave my snorkel behind when I dive. How did this whole discussion get started anyway...

The bottom line is, everyone uses different equipment that raises their comfort level under and on top of the water. Whatever you do, evaluate the necessity of your gear, and dive with the minimum to keep your comfort level high!


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#195 - 04/15/01 07:39 PM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
rstone Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 104
Loc: Jacksonville, FL USA
quote:
Originally posted by scuba1066:
RSTONE,
Name me one advantage that a snorkel offers vs not? Thats why a BC jacket doubles as a boyancy control device AND life jacket device - so divers can effortlessly swim while on the surface. Why would you want to swim towards your dive boat with your face submerged and not see where you are going when you don't need to? How many times have you accidently grabbed your snorkel instead of your inflator hose?

name 1? .. your out of air, so a reg is not a option. the seas are rough and you waiting in line on a tow line behind 5-6 other divers waiting to get on the boat.. you still need to get your fins off so you can climb the ladder and your sucking in alot of water from the waves..

why would you swim with your face submerged?? hmm let me think.. your out of air, you have drifted a distance and you need to swim to the boat...

a BC as a life jacket?? OOOKKK first off a BC is NOT a approved life jacket.. life jackets are made to keep your face out of the water even in a face down position, and im sure the coast guard would disagree with you since they have stated this as well.

As for pulling your snorkel.. ya it happens, but then again is that a problem? its not letting out of my bc is it?? or putting me on a uncontrolled descent is it? if you dont want to pull your snorkel then secure your bc hose where you know you can grab it. Im not suggesting you have to wear one, but at least having a collapsable one in your BC should be part of your gear just as much as having a signalling device.


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#196 - 04/16/01 02:52 AM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
scuba1066 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 230
Loc: Oneida, NY
RSTONE,
Well, I'm just curious how a mere 6 inches, maybe, of snorkel about the top of your head is going to help *that* much with large waves? OK, *maybe I could see the merits then - but 99% of all my diving (and GUE divers) diving caves isn't taking place in the sea - its in lakes, springs and quarries.

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#197 - 04/16/01 08:37 AM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
OneThreeSeven Offline
avid diver

Registered: 02/07/01
Posts: 7
quote:
Originally posted by rstone:
name 1? .. your out of air, so a reg is not a option. the seas are rough and you waiting in line on a tow line behind 5-6 other divers waiting to get on the boat.. you still need to get your fins off so you can climb the ladder and your sucking in alot of water from the waves..

And what if a meteor crashes down, and causes a tidal wave? Or a school of sharks swim by and gets into a feeding frenzy?

You can contrive all the bogus example you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a snorkle is a hazard. Anyone who would describe it as a "safety device" hasn't put any thought into it beyond what their instructor told them. (Standard excuse #3).

In the situation you descriube, a snorkle is going to be about as useful as a bag of rocks. What realy happened is you didn't plan your dive, or execute the dive plan, and now you've realy screwed the pooch. You're dangerous and shouldn't be in the water in the first place until you get *that* fixed. Then we can talk about your snorkle.

quote:
why would you swim with your face submerged??

If you are on SCUBA, it's because you don't know any better, or, you're an idiot. Glad I could clear that up for you.

quote:

hmm let me think.. your out of air, you have drifted a distance and you need to swim to the boat...

Look! A comet!


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#198 - 04/16/01 09:15 AM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
rstone Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 104
Loc: Jacksonville, FL USA
First off.. if a snorkel is such a problem for you that its a hazard to you, if a piece of plastic impairs your ability to dive safely, if your that much of a idiot that some small piece of plastic that millions of other divers use daily with no problems what-so-ever then your a danger to your buddy and everyone else around you and shouldnt be diving. You can make all the excuses you want, but the fact still remains that a snorkel will and have saved divers from bad situtions intentionally or not. You can hide behind DIR and GUE and whoever else you want, but you cant even give 1 GOOD.. LOGICAL.. reason for not having one when your in the ocean. I could care less if you cave dive or whatever the hell agency would certify someone like you. Your a accident waiting to happen.

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#199 - 04/16/01 10:01 AM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
SGHOWE Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 81
Loc: Ashton, Maryland, USA
First off I don't see how in the hell a snorkel is going to save anybody's life. If the water is rough what makes you think that you wont get water in your snorkel just as easily as you do in your mouth??? If it is so turbulent that you cant lay on your back or stay upright in the water without getting tons of water in your mouth even the fanciest of snorkels will be flooding and not help the situation whatsoever. Secondly anybody who is stupid or careless enough breath their tank so empty that they cant get a few minutes out of it on the surface has far greater problems than whether or not they have a snorkel. This kind of covoluted logic is ridiculous...in effect you are saying that a snorkel is a substitute for conciencious gas consuption and dive planning skills. If you can read goddamn numbers you can avoid running out of air!!! Using a snorkel for the reason that you might not have enough air on the surface to breath in the water is not addressing the problem. Snorkels have their place, and that is in snorkeling! I ditched mine far before I had ever heard of DIR, in fact it was before GUE was even a training agency and the phrase DIR was even coined. By the way I dive in the ocean and DIR works there just fine! It has been used and proven in virtually every underwater environment. There are DIR divers doing very sucessful dives in the Baltic sea, the north sea, the north atlantic ocean, and the great lakes as well as in caves and warmer ocean waters, so the argument that this diving style does not work in the ocean or in cold water is utter garbage. See onethreeseven, i work at a dive shop and im not out to sell people useless gear I tend to think this argument is going nowhere because you see rstone is a STROKE, and like many strokes tend to do he thinks he is right and wont listen to anybody.

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#200 - 04/16/01 04:06 PM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
Toothpickman Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/08/01
Posts: 116
SGHOWE:
"in effect you are saying that a snorkel is a substitute for conciencious gas consuption and dive planning skills. If you can read goddamn numbers you can avoid running out of air!!! " I hate to tell you this sghowe but things can go wrong with diving that people can not plan. Having a snorkel is just a good safety precaution, it really isn't so hard to have one so why be so mush against it. Anyway this argument aside I really think this line of conversation is way too off the posted topic, if anyone wants to continue it I suggest making a new topic.

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#201 - 04/16/01 06:11 PM Re: new diver needs advice on equipment
Rebecca Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/06/00
Posts: 561
Just so you all know I am sticking to my "dinasour diver" discription of OneThreeSeven. When I refered to him as that it wasn't just the snorkel I was talking about.
I am in instructor in CA I will not let my students into the water without a snorkel. If you try to do a surface swim laying on your back through a kelp bed instead of sticking your face down and snorkeling through it you can be sure every one of them will get tangled up! Even if I wasn't in CA or if I wasnt diving in an area with heavy kelp, students in an openwater class are not very comfortable with the equipment. A lot of times they tip over from the weight belt being crooked or they dont have enough air in their BC. Though I am very careful to watch for these problems, it is nice for them to beable to have a snorkel in their mouth in these cases. SURE! this is lack of training, but who are we talking about here? A BASIC OPENWATER STUDENT, they need to buy and use a snorkel!

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